“Fanfiction is second only to Deviantart when it comes to fragile emotions. I, personally, could take just about any criticism thrown at me and pretend it didn’t exist in the first place, but most people here are just trying to escape their own brutal reality. When they don’t even find support here of all places, things go dark fast. I’ve actually fought to keep a few authors from offing themselves a while back. There was a girl named Thriller Killer who made an incredibly popular Undertale RP, but it got so popular that a group dedicated to shutting her down was made, and on top of the stress of real life, it proved too much from her. I don’t know if she did off herself, but her last message certainly sounded like it. You really don’t know how devastating these things can be.”
Wow. Just… wow.
I do believe this is the first time someone has used an actual suicide victim as a martyr for the Cult of Nice.
Just… wow.
Apr 7
Stop, Elmo. Not all stories are up to “your standards”. The admins themselves don’t care enough to act on their so-called rules so long as an author is not harassing anyone else. And what do I find when reading other fanfics? I find you again, going out of your way to deeply criticize another fledgling author. And again, Pokemon names are capitalized. They are in the games, they are in the Manga, and they are in the Anime’s Titles and Subtitles. You’re wrong, dude.
Apr 7
“Deeply criticize”? I’m not sure whether to be happy or frustrated that you don’t have the faintest clue what actual harmful flaming looks like.
Anyway, while we’re on the topic of intruding on author’s lives, it’s really not your place to speak for another author. If they care, they can talk to me themselves.
Flaming is far from deeply criticizing. Deeply criticizing is finding every last little detail that seems off in the slightest and turning it into a gut-wrenching blow. Flaming is simply outright saying the fic is bad with nothing to back that up. I respect your lack of flames, though I never said you did them to begin with. You also make a fair point in saying I have no hold over you, but I still can voice my opinions on your actions. I simply don’t like your style when you criticize those fledgling writers, not unlike myself, is all. I feel you could be more productive, if “necessary roughness” is what you’re going for. Sure, tell them all the things you believe are wrong, but be sure to give them a vote of confidence at the end as well. Like a “I know you can do better than this”, instead of a “Why don’t you know how to do this?” for example. I feel that something like that would actually help create a story to your liking. [Deeply criticizing is finding every last little detail that seems off in the slightest and turning it into a gut-wrenching blow.]
I don’t intend to inflict gut-wrenching blows. If you feel that non-judgmentally pointing out objective mistakes and telling people how to fix them is “gut-wrenching”, that is your problem, not mine, and for your own health you should stay away from public forums where making a safe space for yourself is impossible.
[You also make a fair point in saying I have no hold over you]
I never said this. I said you shouldn’t speak for other people. I don’t fight proxy wars.
[but be sure to give them a vote of confidence at the end as well. Like a “I know you can do better than this”, instead of a “Why don’t you know how to do this?” for example.]
Except I don’t know that they can do better. You are telling me to lie.
1. When a fledgling author’s first review is that of all things, it’s pretty gut-wrenching, though I don’t suppose you’ve ever gotten to feel that, not that I’d know. Fanfiction is second only to Deviantart when it comes to fragile emotions. I, personally, could take just about any criticism thrown at me and pretend it didn’t exist in the first place, but most people here are just trying to escape their own brutal reality. When they don’t even find support here of all places, things go dark fast. I’ve actually fought to keep a few authors from offing themselves a while back. There was a girl named Thriller Killer who made an incredibly popular Undertale RP, but it got so popular that a group dedicated to shutting her down was made, and on top of the stress of real life, it proved too much from her. I don’t know if she did off herself, but her last message certainly sounded like it. You really don’t know how devastating these things can be.2. It’s better to tell someone to keep going than to tell someone to stop, and it was essentially saying the same thing anyways. Of course I’d defend a fledgling author. Nobody else will.
3. Maybe if you didn’t put them down, they would do better.
Apr 7[When they don’t even find support here of all places, things go dark fast. I’ve actually fought to keep a few authors from offing themselves a while back. There was a girl named Thriller Killer who made an incredibly popular Undertale RP, but it got so popular that a group dedicated to shutting her down was made, and on top of the stress of real life, it proved too much from her. I don’t know if she did off herself, but her last message certainly sounded like it. You really don’t know how devastating these things can be.]
Jesus Christ, listen to yourself! THAT IS ALL THE MORE REASON FOR PEOPLE TO STAY IN THEIR SAFE SPACES. FANFICTION NET IS NOT A THERAPIST AND IT IS NOT A SAFE SPACE. You perpetuate the myth that it is, then when suicidal people who desperately need REAL help end up getting savaged by standard fandom nastiness you think you’re totally innocent here? Christ, are you really that blind? Stop using suicidal people as a cheap prop for your arguments. If you really want to help them, teach them how to exercise their own self-care instead of telling them that interacting with the disgusting cesspit of savagery and hatred that is modern fandom will help!
…There truly is no reasoning with you…I’m not gonna blacklist you because I respect you enough, but c’mon man. This place isn’t a bookstore. Try not to expect Harry Potter.Apr 8[This place isn’t a bookstore. Try not to expect Harry Potter.]
What are you talking about.
You sound like you expect some brilliant novel in your reviews…this place is for free-form writing made by mostly teenagers who barely know what they’re doing, so try not to expect much.Oh I’m sorry, I thought we were talking about suicide victims? Since you care about them so much and definitely wouldn’t just throw them out for a cheap win and then start ignoring them?…if you wanted to talk about the suicide victims, why did you simply talk about that in your previous message? I was responding to the (“This place isn’t a bookstore.” “What are you talking about.”) Post which had nothing to do with the suicide victims. You made it perfectly clear you didn’t care about those.Apr 8[You made it perfectly clear you didn’t care about those.]
Please, do elaborate.
Apr 9…Okay, dude, I don’t know what’s going through your head right now, but I can’t just leave it at this.
What you’re doing is seriously messed up. I have heard the “but what if someone kills themselves over this???” argument many times, but this is the first time someone has used an actual suicide victim to win an argument against me. The former is bad enough, but what you’ve done is staggeringly callous and tone-deaf. For God’s sake, look at what you described, then look at my reviews, and please tell me how on Earth you think they are even remotely similar? I do not dogpile. I do not use sockpuppets to get around blocks. I do not cook up dedicated harassment campaigns. I review people once, and I walk away. If you can’t see the difference between those two things, you have no idea what suicidal people actually deal with and have no right to use them in your arguments. If you think you can go back to talking about our petty everyday disagreements after bringing up such a serious issue, you very obviously do not care or understand about this issue at all. And if you really cared about these authors you would talk to them and get their permission before talking for them, in which case you would have learned that this particular one displayed a staggeringly better level of social intelligence than you by blocking me immediately.
So tell me, Creator, what are you really fighting for?
I don’t talk about suicidal people, not only because of how tacky that would be but because I don’t believe they’re relevant to this conversation. I really don’t think my tepid reviews are bad enough to push someone over the edge, and if you’re really honest with yourself I don’t think you do either, not with any certainty. Anyone who would be pushed over the edge by that can be pushed over the edge by practically anything, and someone that fragile should not be on the internet at all. If you really want to save them, the best thing you can do is tell them to stay off the volatile internet until they recover, not pat yourself on the back because you shut down one of ten thousand potential triggers.
But since you brought it up, let’s talk about what your ideal world means for suicidal people, shall we? A world where everyone has to throw out a platitude with every review, even if it’s false. Do you honestly think that will work? Do you honestly think people are that stupid? Because they aren’t. People know when you’re lying to them. And once they know that, they can’t trust anything ever again. How do they know when someone’s praise is real, or when they’re just lying between their teeth? They can’t. And if a depressed person can’t tell if praise is real, they’re going to assume NO praise real, and everybody secretly hates them. I know this because I had depression myself when I was younger and that was exactly how I thought. And wouldn’t you know, anxiety disorders and imposter syndrome are highly correlated to depression, so those are going to feed on each other and create a vicious cycle too.
And since you’ve taught everyone to fake niceness so well, all those dangerous people who are willing to drive authors to suicide out of spite? They’re a lot harder to spot now. You’ve taught them to blend in. So congratulations, you’ve created a community where everyone’s a paranoid mess and still won’t see the predators coming until it’s too late.
So no, Creator, I’m not going to lie in my reviews. I’m not going to give praise when I don’t mean it. Because unlike you, I’m not willing to drive people insane and then say I helped them.
Anime, much? Haha. “Ideal world”? Get real. At least I don’t crush their hope before they ever get a chance to feel it.What are you trying to accomplish here, exactly?I’m trying to get you to listen, which you have yet to do.No, I’m listening fine. I’m hearing loud and clear that you’re a sociopath.This coming from the guy who takes pleasure in crushing the dreams of aspiring writers?Apr 11That. That is what you took away from this. What is wrong with you.
Once again, this isn’t about that anymore. My reviews are meaningless next to PEOPLE DYING. If you’re just going to ignore that to continue one-upping me, yes, you’re a sociopath. I’m not discussing anything further with you until you apologize for using a suicide victim as a prop.
Wrong with me? I’m the one trying to make that stuff not happen in the first place. I KNEW someone that committed suicide, and you call that a prop?! No. You’ll get no apology from me. Good day, sir.That you are using someone you knew personally as an excuse to create more tragedies is even more disgusting. Dreams are not more important than lives. If the choice is between their dreams or their life, you must choose their life.And yet you chose dream. Do you not understand it’s reviews like yours that do this? That’s what I have been trying to tell you this whole time! I’m trying to get you to stop for fear it will happen to others. Having your hours of work be immediately be torn apart is downright CRUSHING.Apr 12So you truly do not see the difference between a lynch mob actively trying to kill people and someone pointing out grammar mistakes. I was really hoping you did.
Let me explain my reasoning here, since you seem a little lost.
I have never heard of someone committing suicide over my reviews, and I don’t believe I ever will. However, anyone who theoretically would has far, far bigger problems than me. It means they cannot handle normal social interaction at all and must be removed from the internet to limit their social interaction to a safe space of people they can trust, for their own safety. This is not up for debate. They are *deadly ill* and they *need treatment*. That may mean “crushing their dreams” of being a fanfiction author, but that is worth it because it means THEY WILL LIVE. If you really cared about them, you would be working on ways to facilitate this, or at least try to discourage them from these dangerous waters, instead of wasting time on me.
Or to put it another way…
Say someone goes swimming in a lake, gets bitten by a fish, and nearly bleeds out because it turns out they have hemophilia. If your solution is to kill that one fish and then push them back in telling them everything will be fine, you are either extremely stupid or trying to get them killed.
And if that person proceeds to get eaten by a crocodile hiding in the sediment, and you then use her as a martyr for a campaign to exterminate a species of fish you have a personal vendetta against while doing nothing about the crocodiles instead of putting up a sign warning people of the danger, you’re disgusting.
You have received a message from:
THE CREATOR and Hydra
https://www.fanfiction.net/u/8900378/
Reply link: https://www.fanfiction.net/pm2/post.php?rid=209825885#new
——————–
Hydra-I’m sorry but I can’t take this anymore, you guys have been arguing about pointless crap for a whole week and I’m getting sick and tired of it, this needs to stop you guys are talking too much about suicide and other crap that now your just trying to one up each other this argument is pointless and I’m ending it between both of you here and now, thank you and goodbye.
——————–
Aaand blocked.
Ugh that was awful. He threw me so much I completely lost control of the conversation. I thought I might have finally been getting somewhere, but it turns out the other guy is even worse.
Jesus.
Then after about a week I got this:
St Elmo’s Fire,
A new review has been posted to your story.
Story: Blood is Thicker than Water
Chapter: 1. Chapter 1
From: THE CREATOR and Hydra ( https://www.fanfiction.net/u/8900378/ )
Reply URL: https://www.fanfiction.net/pm2/post.php?rwid=249304049
——————-
Yo, i’ve cooled down a bit and went behind my co-author’s back to un-block you. I’ve also come to apologize for bringing personal business to an argument. Doing that always loses “points”, so to speak. I’ve come to ask you for a second chance. To put our past behind us.
——————-
oh my god leave me alone you creep
also why won’t people stop abusing the review feature
There’s a big white block underneath the last formatted reply box, which obscures the rest of the post, both the white text and black background.
Agh I don’t know why this keeps happening. Should be fixed now, hopefully.
To play devil’s advocate, your responses only fanned the flames.
What flames? The flames of thinking before he speaks? I argued poorly, yes, but I had nothing to lose by trying.
Well said. There’s always been something kind of creepy to me about the nice culture of reviews. Or actually, less the reviews themselves and more the insistence that that’s the only way to review. For some reason I get this image in my head of creepily smiling people with baleful eyes who want you to get out or blend in. This was especially apparent in a fanfiction I’m reading where a couple characters are writing pretty bad fanfiction and everybody is saying they love it and shaming the haters. I found it really weird that there’s no-one in-universe who was just concerned with the story quality and not a flamer.
I think you nailed it with what you said about creating a world where you can’t trust anything positive that anyone says because you know they lie.
Also, there’s a thread on a forum I frequent that I think might be of interest:
https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/on-the-art-of-giving-and-receiving-feedback.38506/
If criticism over the internet can drive people to suicide, why aren’t people worried that their criticism of your and Farla’s criticism might make you want to kill yourself ?
0
going out of your way to deeply criticize another fledgling author
Is this the first time someone ever accused you of putting way too much effort into your 90% copypasta reviews instead of claiming you barely even read the story?
Flaming is simply outright saying the fic is bad with nothing to back it up.
Wow, so we’ve finally gotten to the point where “thought-out constructive criticism” is worse than outright flaming.
those fledgling writers
I wonder how condescending it must feel, as an author you review, to see this person assume that everyone you review must be a newbie because only a newbie could possibly make the capitalization or dialogue punctuation mistakes you critique the most.
…
… Did they really send you a PM with nothing but an ellipsis in it, and then a second one with their actual response in it?
… Okay, dude, I don’t know what’s going through your head right now, but I just can’t leave it at this.
I think that this post has more negative emotion behind it than literally every review I’ve seen you make put together. Because, damn. I thought the guy using Liberian ex-slave repatriation and the Nuremberg Defence to justify his fic last time was bad but… Jesus Christ, I have absolutely no idea how you were able to even formulate a response to… this. Even putting this into words is proving difficult. That other guy probably just didn’t realize the unfortunate implications of what he said, but this guy… I don’t even know how to describe this guy.
Reading this actually makes me feel kind of bad for suggesting that you mention anything you liked about a fic alongside the errors to make the review seem more well intentioned; even though I only intended for you to do that if there was something you truthfully liked about it in the first place.
I don’t think there’s been anything this angry on this blog since Act reviewed a book where John Green co-opts the life story of a fan of his who died of cancer to ask suicidal people why they don’t just kill themselves.
And now that a massive white block has disappeared to reveal the rest of this post…
Just what’s the deal with two people sharing an FFN account? It’s not like they cost any money to make or anything. This is just… bizarre. Reading these two feels like one person pretending to be two people, or maybe how TV tends to portray multiple personalities, like his Fight and his Flight got split into separate personas, or something.
It’s a shame both personalities are terrible.
Maybe don’t accuse people of having mental disorders because you’re mad about them being callous about mental health issues?
(Which isn’t to say that sociopathy and suicidal depression are in any way equivalent, but leaving aside entirely any argument about how much sensitivity actual sociopaths deserve, you don’t know this person and have no business diagnosing them over the internet, and dismissing people by arbitrarily deciding they are “the bad kind of crazy” when they do something you don’t like is all kinds of ableist.)
This is true. I acknowledge I did not conduct myself well here.
Even so, I still feel like there’s a big difference between using the suicide of their friend to try to win an argument, and calling someone a sociopath for doing so.
Yeah, but they’re still both things that one should not do, and it doesn’t seem like Mini minded me pointing out that he shouldn’t have done it. We all have stuff to learn.
He’s more than free to do so, but since he did say it, I still feel like it’s important to say how the two things are different; even if both of them are things that should not have been said at the end of the day.
I’m struggling to make a comparison for what I want to say it’s like… Everything I’m coming up with sounds too harsh.
But it’s just… honestly, I am not a very empathic person at all, as hard as I try to be. Mini, and most of the regulars here, are far more attuned to the feelings of other people than I am. So when I see something like this, and I actually react to it as strongly as I did, I worry a lot about why the person who actually thought it’d be okay to say said it. I’m not sure, in Mini’s position, I would’ve thought to call him that word specifically, but if it had, I can’t honestly say with 100% certainty that I definitely would not’ve used it myself.
I don’t know, maybe it’s my low amount of natural empathy that makes me feel this way in the first place, but I still feel that, as bad a thing it was to do, it was only in response to something unbelievably worse.
I still feel like it’s important to say how the two things are different
Ehhh I still don’t think that justifies splitting hairs over it. Let’s just agree to move on now.
Eh, alrighty then, no prob. Like I said in my first post, you’re free to feel differently about it. I just wanted to explain why I felt the way I felt. I did, so I’m pretty much done anyway.
I don’t know, maybe it’s my low amount of natural empathy that makes me feel this way in the first place, but I still feel that, as bad a thing it was to do, it was only in response to something unbelievably worse.
Low natural empathy not making you unbelievably awful is precisely why it’s important to be careful how we talk about it. It’s not so much concern about how the asshole doing this feels about it as that it’s best to avoid throwing around diagnosises when you’re upset and say something else instead.
While I understand the sentiment, and why you shouldn’t diagnose people people over the internet (and I actually was done saying all I had to say about this guy already) and all that… I do have something to say about myself. It’s important so I hope Mini won’t mind me going back on my word to let this chain end.
Low natural empathy not making you unbelievably awful is precisely why it’s important to be careful about how we talk about it.
The thing is… I’m not sure if it doesn’t in my case. I feel like it’s only fair to point out that at least part of the reason I don’t come across as unbelievably awful is the result of an unbelievably large amount of trying to be the opposite. That “as hard as I try to be” part I mentioned two or three posts ago.
As glad as I am to hear that you don’t think I’m unbelievably awful, it’s the result of a lot of effort.
I hope this doesn’t sound like I’m self-censoring myself to avoid Tumblr-like backlash, though. The comments I’ve made on this blog probably contain more original writing and personal opinions than I wrote on my entire time on Tumblr. It’s just that here has a way higher ratio of people I like talking to (pretty much everyone) versus people I groan when I see their name pop up (which is limited to “don’t talk to illhousen about RPG systems because he likes FATE”, because I can get kinda vitriolic about FATE), and that’s waaaaaaaaaaay better than my primary community of internet-people. So I just don’t want to fuck this up.
I dunno, maybe the fact that I don’t want to be as awful as I think I am makes me a better person than if I just let myself be awful or something, or maybe this is just my extreme pessimism talking and I’m not giving myself nearly as much credit as I deserve, but it still feels wrong to let you think so highly of me without knowing this.
(The fact that “not unbelievably awful” is “so highly” to me is probably something else I should worry about…)
Fuck, man. “A new low,” as a title fits pretty well. I never heard of a person using an actual sucide (truth to be told, I think he is actually lying about it) to win a weak argument. That’s bad.
This one was so bad that actually made you mad even when you are used to deal with people trashing about you, that should be a record.
You know, I considered that too, but either way… Both using an actual suicide to win an argument about pokemon fanfiction and inventing a suicide to win an argument about pokemon fanfiction are both unbelievably terrible things to do. Regardless of which one you think is worse, neither of them should ever be done.