secs ago(For future reference, this is easier if you quote the sections you’re responding to.)

[I was under the impression that Team Magma was a group founded to awaken Groudon and expand the land mass of the world]

Which would kill everyone, yes. It doesn’t matter if they honestly thought it wouldn’t, anyone else should be able to recognize it as insanity.

[Regardless, there’s obviously a different backstory going on here; more different than the canon backstory.]

No, it really isn’t obvious. You’ve given no indication Magma and Aqua would be any different than in canon. If you’re completely changing who they are and what they do, why don’t you just make up your own original group? At the very least, you should say they’re a splinter faction with different motives. If you’re going to be using canon names to refer to something different, don’t be surprised when people get confused.

[I stated that they had sent elite strike teams to key locations]

But why would the rangers have elite strike teams in the first place? Pokemon rangers can use pokemon in a limited capacity, but if you say there’s a real military in this, they should logically have not only better resources but better training as well. Seriously, they are the pokeworld equivalent of *park rangers*. It’s theoretically possible to write a story about park rangers saving the world, but it would involve some seriously extenuating circumstances and probably be worth a story in and of itself.

[Considering the mindset of humanity in general, we as a race tend to categorise and dictate certain things as fact. I wouldn’t be surprised if the odd ‘law’ or two had been broken by Pokemon that were still being discovered. It’s not like they had a radar that ticked off every single Pokemon in existence, I would assume they discovered and catalogued them one at a time, no?]

Possibly, especially since pokemon tend to have extremely varied powers, but if so it’s so far off from our own reality that I don’t think the understanding would be the same. In the real world, scientists categorize things so rigidly because that is how reality actually works — the laws of physics have been very thoroughly tested and we are very confident they apply universally. The situation here is more that everything follows its own rules, which… is not actually that crazy, especially if pokemon are a normal part of life so this should be normal for them. It does make science a more volatile and unpredictable field, but again, they won’t consider it unusual if that’s their normal reality. Scientists would pretty quickly learn not to make sweeping generalizations in a world where that isn’t a valid approach.

[Well, considering Ranger’s didn’t actually train Pokemon as a whole faction, it would be a little hard to just ‘use a Blastoise.’]

Rental pokemon exist. If you’re giving pokemon enough agency to disobey stupid orders, they have enough personality to be trained as soldiers. Realism!

[A gun that shoots a bullet that functions as well as any ice-beam or flamethrower would make a little more sense to use on a mass-scale wouldn’t it.]

But you don’t just snap your fingers and invent the modern assault rifle. We’ve been refining firearms for centuries, and the original models were pretty terrible. Yes, I’ll definitely agree with you that mass-produced modern firearms do have advantages over pokemon, just as the more accessible crossbow had advantages over the technically superior longbow, but… do muskets? It’s a catch-22; they’d have to know in advance that this avenue of development would pay off if they kept throwing resources at it, despite initial returns being inferior to already-extant natural resources. Realism!

…Of course, what it really boils down to is this: is it really interesting to read about humans fighting pokemon with guns? Personally, I’d say… no. There are a million stories about hardboiled soldier dudes killing monsters with cool guns already. Pokemon is about, well, pokemon. Pokemon training is the unique idea that the franchise brings to the scene, which means it’s probably what your readers are going to be interested in if you’re posting to a Pokemon fanfic archive.

You may well decide that this is what works best for your particular story, but it is something to consider. This thread has further discussion on the topic, if you’re interested: https://www.fanfiction.net/topic/11834/23620074/1/Modern-Weapons-vs-Pok%C3%A9mon

[It seemed to stretch on too much, didn’t think it would make that of an impact upon its removal.]

It’s just a little grating because that line is such a cliche and it reinforces such boring gender stereotypes. Even if you don’t intend anything by it, using the exact same phrases from our world implies things are the same in this one. The pokeworld does seem to be egalitarian, so it’d be nice to see that be reflected in casual speech.

[Which is why I specifically stated a ‘runt of a Trainer’ I meant it to mean a weak, unlikeable handler; but you seem to have misunderstood?]

Ah ah ah, you just made a big assumption there: “weak” and “unlikeable” are not necessarily the same thing. I mean, for one thing, any human is going to look weak in a pokemon’s eyes; but what about a weak, stupid trainer who’s really nice to their pokemon, like Hau? Like I said earlier, if pokemon have enough personality to dislike certain trainers and disobey their orders, you should commit to that. It means pokemon are people, with all the natural personality variations that implies. They’re living creatures, not perfectly logical fighter bots. (This topic also has a discussion thread: https://www.fanfiction.net/topic/11834/142476358/1/Pokemon-Intelligence )

secs ago[Fanatics are quite useful.]

No, not really. They’re not rational actors. They’ll turn on you the moment they realize you don’t share their goals. You’d need to not only make a very convincing lie to gain their assistance, you’d have to maintain it for a long time as friction between your groups becomes increasingly obvious. They will inevitably figure out you’re just using them, and then you have a problem on your hands. Even if they’re stupid (which they aren’t necessarily), fanatics are above all *dangerous*; a loose cannon. It seems far more productive to assimilate a group that actually shares their goals, like Team Rocket.

[I can think of many successful stories that have started the way I have, introducing a canon faction or character that reveals itself to be dramatically different. ]

Can I see an example?

[Why not?]

Because that’s just not how technology works. We only know how to make modern guns because of centuries of trial and error and building on previous discoveries, improving by small degrees each time. You need to invent the cannon before you can invent the hand cannon, you need to invent the hand cannon before you can think “hey, what if we made this more accurate” and invent the musket, you need to look at that and think “hey, what if this didn’t blow up in our face so we could actually aim” to invent the rifle, then independently someone needs to figure out you can put the gunpowder and the metal together to make bullets, then you need to figure out semi-automatic reloading mechanisms before you can figure out fully automatic mechanisms… etc., etc. All technological development works this way. We advance through small steps, and each advancement lets us see the next one. Even if pokeworld humans could conceptualize a modern assault rifle, they have no way of knowing how to make one (or that it’s even remotely possible) without figuring out how to make simpler guns first.

[Ugh.]

Can you elaborate, please?

secs agoMay I suggest you tone down the hostility? I’m not trying to be uncivil; if I don’t address one of your points, it’s because I found your argument satisfactory. I think you’ve made reasonable points and I just want to pursue these interesting avenues of discussion.

[That’s the best part, you think the Muslim extremists in Syria aren’t useful towards their own goals?]

Towards *their own* goals, yes, but notice how poorly they interact with all other outside groups. The real-world analogy to what you have here would be the Mafia recruiting ISIS. I think you can see how unlikely that would be? Both groups are very powerful and dangerous individually, but their goals aren’t compatible and they have no reason to work with each other. Fanatics by definition are obsessed with a singular, often exclusionary cause; they cannot be bought and are often extremely distrustful of outsiders.

Perhaps I’m framing this wrong. The question isn’t so much “Why did Cipher try to recruit the dealth cultists?” but “What reason do the death cultists have to work with Cipher?”

[Better Left Unsaid by Kenchi618, his Naruto goes through a random shift of attitude, stature and magnitude due backstory that had yet to be revealed at that point in time.]

I’m afraid I’m not terribly familiar with Naruto. Do you have an example in Pokemon?

[I thought it would be undoubtedly clear that military organisations exist in my story.]

Of course. But military doesn’t necessarily imply guns. There are many possible weapons a military can use, and many possible technological pathways it can pursue. The Pokemon universe introduces a huge area of weaponry that doesn’t exist in our world — the pokemon themselves. I felt it would be more logical for military R&D to pursue training and breeding programs for pokemon rather than other weaponry. But yes, it’s true that that doesn’t mean guns can’t exist at all. You’ve said you wanted guns for aesthetic reasons, and that’s more important, so I won’t press the issue.

Although, I’d like to make one point:

[Where are the prototypes of the Pokeball?]

Apricorn balls. Even the storage systems and pokedex are described as cutting-edge technologies that have only just been invented by the time the games begin. It’s pretty clear that there has been a history of developing pokemon-based technology in the games.

[Digging for evidence of Sexism, are we? I assure you there’s none to be found. People who look for stereotypes where there are none irritate me, it’s obviously a line that has been in play for quite a while, one that not many people seem to have a problem with besides the special few who do.]

You’re being awfully defensive when I never made any accusation towards you. You don’t have to be intentionally sexist to say something sexist; our culture has a long history of sexism full of little things we wouldn’t recognize as sexist without examination.

Think about what the phrase implies. When people say that soldiers “leave wives bereft of their husbands” but not the other way around, it implies they were only killing men; in other words, that the men went to war while the women stayed home. That reinforces the gender stereotypes of the man as the protector and the woman as the housekeeper. Can you see why someone might be a little bothered by that, even if they know you weren’t trying to make a statement with it?

I totally believe you weren’t trying to be an evil woman-hater when you said it, and you’re right that it is a minor thing. But I think it’s important to analyze the implications of little everyday things like that; if nothing else, it will make you a better writer if you can understand, deconstruct, and reconstruct turns of phrase.

secs ago[Now imagine having two of them.]

Two of them that are diametrically opposed and hate each other, though? It’s strange enough for one cult to work with Cipher, but both of them working together is downright impossible. They hate each other more than anything else and their goals are not even superficially compatible. They won’t cooperate for all the money in the world.

[Anyone can be bought.]

Only provisionally, though. Fanatics don’t take orders from non-fanatics. They may feign cooperation, but they’ll turn on Cipher the moment they outlive their usefulness.

There is a way this could work. Recall how the US funded the Taliban to keep the Russians out of Afghanistan during the Cold War. The US military didn’t assimilate or control the Taliban, they were only able to point the wrecking ball in the direction they wanted — and only for a little while, because the Taliban turned on the US as soon as they were the ones who wanted to enter Afghanistan. It was an alliance, not a merger.

It could make sense for Cipher to do something similar here. If they want to do damage to all the other regions, it would be beneficial to point the cultists somewhere and let them loose. Especially if they’re playing both Aqua and Magma — in the games, each individual group does only minor damage to greater society because they only want a few artifacts, but they cause massive chaos when they fight each other. So, Cipher could let the cultists destroy each other while causing collateral damage to Cipher’s real enemies. That would be a good use of fanatic factions.

Basically, I feel like you’re ignoring each team’s individual personality too much. Different factions have different goals and motives. Especially among criminals, it makes more sense for there to be infighting and double-crossing than everyone calmly amalgamating into a monolith.

secs agoWell, the thing is, the cliche of “all the teams merge together to form THE UBERTEAM” is so widespread in this fandom that it’s kind of poisoned the well. I can’t take it on faith that a given author knows what they’re doing and that I’m meant to feel something’s up when they do something bizarre, because so many people have played it completely straight. It’s especially awkward when you’re giving this as backstory, so we don’t get to actually see it happen, only a clinical account that’s hard to interpret. You might be playing your cards too close to your chest on this one — the new line about how nobody knows how Cipher got them to work together is a big improvement, but there are still so many stories that say stuff like that and then it never comes up again.

Otherwise, no, I think I’ve covered everything.